CTC Review: 2008 Saturn Vue Hybrid

[Erik]

 
I purchased my Vue Hybrid two months ago,
Its been in the shop every since with undetermined starting/idling issues.
Still no resolve. 

[Honda Owner]

Having worked at GM stores in the past, I would never buy a first year model. You see, GM mechanics are not required to take courses. It is quite possible to have a product that the service department cannot fix.

Actually, having worked in GM stores, I would never buy one. I would highly recommend a GM product, however, for anyone I do not know.

[WopOnTour]

Having worked at GM stores in the past, I would never buy a first year model. You see, GM mechanics are not required to take courses. It is quite possible to have a product that the service department cannot fix.

This is totally FALSE information and you very obviously don't have a clue. General Motors does more technician training than ANY other manufacturer in Canada.In your area alone (Vancouver) there were more than 1800 man-days of GM "hands-on" technical training attended (NOT including  about the same volume of GM ASEP apprenticeship classes at BCIT and also not including many thousands of hours of web-based modules) This is AFTER they hve completed many years of training to earn their Journeyman Red Seal.
Are you working on the washrack in that Honda store by chance???
WopOnTour

[rrocket]

This certainly must be dealer dependant.  The GM dealers we dealt with had the IQ of a washrack...

[WopOnTour]

This certainly must be dealer dependant.  The GM dealers we dealt with had the IQ of a washrack...

Actually, No it's not. All GM dealers are essentially required to send their people. However like anything else it can be dependant on the individual. You can have good dentists and bad dentists but both went to school for 7 years.(haven't seen a lot of changes in the human mouth taking place have you?) It's not unusual for car enthusiasts to think they know more about their cars than a licensed journeyman (let alone a dealership specialist) but of course that's ludicrous. If you really know that much, you would fix you on car.

[rrocket]

If you really know that much, you would fix you on car.

Well I do...but when it's under warranty, I'll let the monkeys do it.  I don't really think they are mechanics so much as "R&R" people.  Would I trust them to actually rebuild an engine from a bare block?  NEVER.  Could they even do it?  Maybe.  But they certainly are capable of pulling an entire engine out and replacing it with a brand new one...which is what usually happens given that case.  Ditto with a tranny.  Or most any component for that matter. 

At least the techs at our $tealership had a sense of humour after we brought in the Alero for the infamous intake gasket.  As we were leaving, one of them said "See you in 10 months".  Pricks....

[WopOnTour]

If you really know that much, you would fix you on car.

Well I do...but when it's under warranty, I'll let the monkeys do it.  I don't really think they are mechanics so much as "R&R" people.  Would I trust them to actually rebuild an engine from a bare block?  NEVER.  Could they even do it?  Maybe.  But they certainly are capable of pulling an entire engine out and replacing it with a brand new one...which is what usually happens given that case.  Ditto with a tranny.  Or most any component for that matter. 

At least the techs at our $tealership had a sense of humour after we brought in the Alero for the infamous intake gasket.  As we were leaving, one of them said "See you in 10 months".  Pricks....

 LOL by "we" I assume you mean your mommy and daddy's car?  I'm not talking about simple basic stuff like overhauling engines or automatics transmissions... Apprentices do that stuff. Anyways you seem to know it all so, and enjoy your car. 

[rrocket]

Not all....just what I need to know!!     I try to touch the POS Alero is as little as possible though... (I'm a instructor for the Apprenticeship Program at the local College FWIW)

[WopOnTour]

Not all....just what I need to know!!     I try to touch the POS Alero is as little as possible though... (I'm a instructor for the Apprenticeship Program at the local College FWIW)

LOL I highly doubt that. Otherwise you wouldnt be saying such things or questioning what OEMs do for training AFTER their techs are licenced. You would know all about it. Or... are you a plumber by chance?? 
WOT

[rrocket]

I see you're new here....so you can either believe me or not.  Doesn't matter.  I'm an engineer and a teacher at the college.  And I DO know what they do there.  I teach all Apprentices entering the mechanic, mouldmaker, toolmaker, millright, CNC and CAD/CAM/Designer courses.

It is not, however, my job to know what training they receive AFTER they leave school.  Though to say all dealerships are equal simply isn't true.  I can tell you this from experience.  We've had a particularly dreadful experience from a particular dealership, while the other 2 where better, but still not stellar.  Which means that:

1) Dealer 1 was just plain incompetent
2) Or dealership 2 and 3 were better trained.

   

[WopOnTour]

That's fine. But I still don't believe you are anything but a pimply faced kid with a Google based automotive education.
I know many hundred college automotive instructors across the country and they just wouldn't talk like you.("stealerships", "monkeys" "IQ of a washrack" "Pricks" etc etc) None of them. Furthermore the disciplines you describe that you're supposedly "teaching" are not part of any automotive apprenticeship curriculum that I'm aware of. (perhaps in some of the co-op or pre-employment stuff or possibly some bloated 2-year technology in some back-water college where they can't find qualified automotive instructors I guess)

I didn't say all dealerships were equal. I said they received equal mandatory training opportunities. Since you're an instructor I don't have to tell you how variations in how people RESPOND and APPLY that training, may vary. But if you think you can deal with even a 5 year old Alero applying "jack-of-all-trades" understanding... you would be wrong.
Now leave me alone, I don't have time for adolescent fools playing games.
WopOnTour

[rrocket]

I'm not sure how the apprenticeship works in your province.  But ALL apprentices in Ontario MUST go to school and get their "basic" education requirement.  For most, it's a 2 year diploma program, but some are 1 and others 3.  After school, they have to accrue X number of hours on the job.  Doesn't really matter where...in the case of a mechanic it could be a mom and pop type garage or a $tealership.  As long as there is someone with their ticket there to sign off on their skills or their book. (Some apprentices have an official book with a list of skills that must be taught.  Once each skill is mastered or learned in a satisfactory manner, that portion is signed off in their book).  After all of their on-site apprenticeship hours are done, they can go in and write their Provincial test.  Once they pass the test, they get their ticket.

No worries.  Like I said....you either believe me or you don't.  Many people here have met me and I can assure you, I'm no pimply faced kid (I wish).  I even took our beloved forum leader, Wing, on a tour of an advanced automotive lighting manufacturing facility while he was in town for the AutoShow (PM him if you think I'm BSing).  And pardon me if I'm not fond of $tealerships (is anyone???.)    They over-charge for everything while not giving anything value-added back for their excessive charges.  There isn't much that a good independent garage couldn't do over what a $tealership could.  All for much cheaper.  (Let me guess, you work at a $tealership...is that why you're so offended? )   

[WopOnTour]

They over-charge for everything while not giving anything value-added back for their excessive charges.  There isn't much that a good independent garage couldn't do over what a $tealership could.  All for much cheaper.  (Let me guess, you work at a $tealership...is that why you're so offended? )   

So what if I did, Is that any reason to disparage and ridicule?
Your attitude towards OE technicians has clearly been twisted through some sort of unfortunate event. But let me assure you, there is very little a college level instructor can teach a good ol "factory trained" OE tech. So to prove a point I've changed my mind about wasting my time with you and your little holier-than-thou attitude.
So how about a little game/challenge?

You pick a technical automotive topic or vehicle system (absolutely anything you like; AIRBAGS, ABS,EVT, VVT,CVT, CAN, NVH,HCCI - ANYTHING you feel you have earned real "expertise" in automotive wise) and then explain it to me- "How It Works",when, how, before, now,  to the best of your ability using perhaps 3 or 4 paragraphs (or as long as you need, but use your own words- just don't copy&paste then attempt to explain it, I'll see through it)

I then will explain to you how it REALLY works,system strategy, calibration details, design variations over the last 10 years, and clearly identify and correct for your weaknesses in the subject matter, AND even explain to you how it's correctly diagnosed to "root cause" in 2009 MY terms.
Then it will be my turn and we'll reverse the roles. Up for it?
 
Before you accept realize that pretty much any 10-year or more OE dealership technician has already spent as much time learning and working on these systems many times over the time you spent getting engineering degree to teach moulds and AutoCad for $85K, and I've been around much longer than that. My point is, I feel you don't know SQUAT about modern automobile engineering as compared to a TYPICAL "up-to-standard" technician at Ditchwater GM , @Anywhere.ca  and I'm willing to prove it. So start a new thread smart guy and link me to it when you're done.
Monkey my ass.
Sincerely
WopOnTour

[carcrazy]

 

Late night fun (or not)... RR, you have a lot of patience ...

[rrocket]

They over-charge for everything while not giving anything value-added back for their excessive charges.  There isn't much that a good independent garage couldn't do over what a $tealership could.  All for much cheaper.  (Let me guess, you work at a $tealership...is that why you're so offended? )   

So what if I did, Is that any reason to disparage and ridicule?
Your attitude towards OE technicians has clearly been twisted through some sort of unfortunate event. But let me assure you, there is very little a college level instructor can teach a good ol "factory trained" OE tech. So to prove a point I've changed my mind about wasting my time with you and your little holier-than-thou attitude.
So how about a little game/challenge?

You pick a technical automotive topic or vehicle system (absolutely anything you like; AIRBAGS, ABS,EVT, VVT,CVT, CAN, NVH,HCCI - ANYTHING you feel you have earned real "expertise" in automotive wise) and then explain it to me- "How It Works",when, how, before, now,  to the best of your ability using perhaps 3 or 4 paragraphs (or as long as you need, but use your own words- just don't copy&paste then attempt to explain it, I'll see through it)

I then will explain to you how it REALLY works,system strategy, calibration details, design variations over the last 10 years, and clearly identify and correct for your weaknesses in the subject matter, AND even explain to you how it's correctly diagnosed to "root cause" in 2009 MY terms.
Then it will be my turn and we'll reverse the roles. Up for it?
 
Before you accept realize that pretty much any 10-year or more OE dealership technician has already spent as much time learning and working on these systems many times over the time you spent getting engineering degree to teach moulds and AutoCad for $85K, and I've been around much longer than that. My point is, I feel you don't know SQUAT about modern automobile engineering as compared to a TYPICAL "up-to-standard" technician at Ditchwater GM , @Anywhere.ca  and I'm willing to prove it. So start a new thread smart guy and link me to it when you're done.
Monkey my ass.
Sincerely
WopOnTour

Well it doesn't really prove much.  You beat me at your job, and I beat you at mine.  Shrug.  My GF is a nurse.  I bet you'd kick her butt around the garage too...and vice versa.  Any number of people here would kick our butts at their job and us them at our jobs. The college job is only my part-time gig.  My full-time job I work in the auto industry...specifically vehicle lighting and optics.  Though my previous engineering jobs including many different types: designing/building/FEA of custom motorcycle parts, helping develop software for a MotoGP team, LEAN Manufacturing, software development for CAD/CAM industry (Delcam, MasterCam, GibbsCam) to name a few.  Heck, I was even offered a job with an F1 Team a long time ago.  What does this all prove?  Not much really...except that I've been around the block once or twice....so I just didn't fall off the turnip truck.

That being said....having built my own race cars and motorcycles, I could put up a better fight doing your job than you could at mine.  But then again....that doesn't prove much either.  Does one who is competent knowing the intricate operations of AIRBAGS, ABS, EVT, CVT...automatically mean they know everything about cars and therefore are THE definitive source for all things automotive? Nope.  By that same token, does that lack of that knowledge in those details mean someone is less apt mechanically? Nope.  I'm sure we both know some old school mechanics who wouldn't have a f****** clue what any of those acronyms mean...but they can fix almost anything under the sun correctly (and quickly), or can tune an engine like nobody's business.

 I know that another member here, Barrie, is VERY competent building engines/cars...but would likely fail your anal test of auto acronyms.  Or Arthur Dent here who is building a car in his garage.  Or the moderator, Wing, who just threw a supercharger on his car.  They'd fail it too I suspect.  My GF for example can change her oil, do a complete brake job..and could probably even replace the turbo herself on my monster car...but she too would fail your acronym test.  And while I'm no dummy....I understand the workings of most of those acronyms (haven't played with a VVT head yet though!), there is no doubt you could better explain their workings than I.  But so could someone who spent a weeks reading technical articles....without ever actually touching a wrench.   My point is...I don't need to know those acronyms to completely disassemble my car, the Alero, the 1970 Mustang Mach 1 we restored..or the countless race bikes I've built (anymore than you need to know what the refraction numbers are for the new Camaro optics we recently finished) . All I need to do is be able to put them back together properly so that they work  better than when I took them apart.  An analogy for you...I know some musicians who are the most talented musicians you could imagine...their skill with their instruments is immense. Oddly enough though they never learned to read music.  Does that make them any less talented?  I don't think so....

There is no doubt that most technicians, regardless of job type, spend countless hours training and upgrading.  I do too.  But I'm sure we both know people in our respective trades who aren't as competent as others.  And like I said...the dealership we had used in the past was populated by a bunch of chimps.  If you want to contact via PM, I'll fill you in about all of the crap we've dealt with at the $tealership with regards to the Alero.  You have an intimate knowledge of GMs by the sounds of it, and could likely answer my question in the blink of an eye.  The technicians we've dealt with could not.  Multiple times.

It seems I've really hit your button...which is kinda funny.  At first you accused me of being some "pimply kid" and you could care less.  But man..did this "pimply kid" ever get under your skin or what!!  LOL  Why is that? Self-esteem problem?  Or maybe just a late nite after a crap-tastic day?

I won't apologize...since nothing I said in this thread from beginning to end was a lie or untrue.  I also don't think you've got much ground to stand on as far as having the Alero serviced in either my garage or an independent garage vs. the excessive prices at the dealership.  Thus far, I have found nothing that I couldn't do on that car that I HAD to take it to the dealership to fix (under warranty notwithstanding, for obvious reasons).  Nothing.  Nada. Nil.  All work I would have been charged out the wazoo for.  I see no value added going to a $tealership for the work.  That's not to say I'd never go there...but only if it was absolutely necessary.  Like if some piece of special service tool/equipment was necessary to get the job done. One I couldn't buy or make.  THEN I'd grudgingly take my car in for that specialized repair.

And I'll go one farther.  There are many enthusiasts here.  I bet they feel the same as me.  If they can fix the car themselves..it's never going to be in a $tealership...EVER.  Take a poll....

[rrocket]

Late night fun (or not)... RR, you have a lot of patience ...

Meh..no biggie.  We're just chatting.  He's taking it a bit personally though.  I see this often with people in the trades.  They feel slighted because the Average Joe doesn't realize how long it takes to get your papers/ticket for skilled trades. Plus, as he mentioned, it's a job that you have to continually upgrade if you want to keep earning good $$ or stay competitive. It's alot of work.  Also, it just doesn't sound glamorous. "I'm a machinist" or "I'm a mechanic" is often under-appreciated or thought to be less important than other jobs. Even though, as he pointed out, most of these jobs involve much skill in modern facilities using the most modern equipment.  Not some dingy poorly lit shoppe as in years past.  It's an image thing. Which is one reason that the enrollment for skilled trades is way down in Ontario...that and there are fewer jobs to go around, plus fewer businesses willing to take on an apprentice.  It's different in other countries, particularly some European countries where tradesmen get HUGE respect.

[tpl]

  Rrocket - Patience of Job award 2008   Gold class.

I would have given up that argument a long time ago.

[wing]

What I don't get is why anyone would give up Monaco, hot girls, big boats and the roar of F1 engines to work in Windsor. 

[johngenx]

I don't get hybrids that don't achieve very good fuel economy.  The Vue barely beats our Forester and our Forester lacks all that added "technology."  Seems stupid to pay a ton of extra money when you could have had bought a $27K Subaru, got AWD, and similar fuel economy.

[quadzilla]

I don't get hybrids that don't achieve very good fuel economy.  The Vue barely beats our Forester and our Forester lacks all that added "technology."  Seems stupid to pay a ton of extra money when you could have had bought a $27K Subaru, got AWD, and similar fuel economy.

Don't be so harsh....not everybody can see the big picture.

Of course, I never understood why they didn't make the Focus Hybrid over the Escape Hybrid.