What Makes a Winter Tire A Sever Snow Condition Tire?

[Trainman]

From Transport Canada:

"Tires marked with the pictograph of a peaked mountain with a snowflake meet specific snow traction performance requirements, and have been designed specifically for use in severe snow conditions."

So what makes such a tire?  Reason I ask is that the General Grabber AT2's I bought for the Forester do not have the snowflake/mountain symbol although the General web site has this: with no limitation on sizes not meeting the requirements.

They also claim better "sever snow traction" (their words) than the competition.

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/ca/en/generaltire/automobile/themes/lt_suv/all_terrain/grabber_at2/master_en.html][url]http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/ca/en/generaltire/automobile/themes/lt_suv/all_terrain/grabber_at2/master_en.html[/url]

Mine can be studded and seem to have decent tread but what may be missing?

Are these not really snow tires?   

[rrocket]

Your link sucks.  Fix it....

[Noobee]

Use tinyurl for links.

What transport canada fails to address, IMO is the different geographical regions.  For example a snow tire that may do well in Ontario may not fair well in BC.  In BC, we have wet and compact snow.  I believe for that climate, you need a tire with an aggressive tread.  In otherwords, I don't think a tire like the Blizzaks would do well in places like Whistler or Vancouver when the big dump of snow comes.

[SiRCivic]

Basically, all winter tires are "Severe Snow Condition Tires." If it doesn't have that Mountain & Snowflake symbol, then it's not a winter tire. Everything else is really just an all-season tire.

Having said that, I believe the Mountain & Snowflake symbol is just a North American thing. Maybe your General Grabbers were some kind of European (grey market?) import. In that case, they may very well be true winter tires, but are just lacking the North American symbol.

Just a guess... 

Edit: Here's another idea, this time from TireRack: "There are still some winter tires in the marketplace that meet the requirements to display the mountain / snowflake symbol but the molds used to make the tires were produced before the symbol was developed."

http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=125

[ovr50]

Use tinyurl for links.

What transport canada fails to address, IMO is the different geographical regions.  For example a snow tire that may do well in Ontario may not fair well in BC.  In BC, we have wet and compact snow.  I believe for that climate, you need a tire with an aggressive tread.  In otherwords, I don't think a tire like the Blizzaks would do well in places like Whistler or Vancouver when the big dump of snow comes.

Ran Blizzaks on one of our cars for 5 winters with good traction on snow and ice, and quiet running. Anecdotal evidence but still valid. Winter tires get their winter-handling qualities from the type of softer rubber compound used, many sipes, and tread designs to shed water and snow. I have never heard of anyone having trouble with Blizzaks in Whistler. In Vancouver, when it snows, there are so many idiots on the roads with summer tires and no knowledge of winter/snow driving techniques, that it becomes a big crap shoot as to who will hit you first. I lived there for over 10 years and saw the carnage when a bit of wet snow falls......

[UmroAyyar]

This defines winter tires and their workings.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/winter/at_winter-tire-time.php

[Noobee]

Ran Blizzaks on one of our cars for 5 winters with good traction on snow and ice, and quiet running. Anecdotal evidence but still valid. Winter tires get their winter-handling qualities from the type of softer rubber compound used, many sipes, and tread designs to shed water and snow. I have never heard of anyone having trouble with Blizzaks in Whistler. In Vancouver, when it snows, there are so many idiots on the roads with summer tires and no knowledge of winter/snow driving techniques, that it becomes a big crap shoot as to who will hit you first. I lived there for over 10 years and saw the carnage when a bit of wet snow falls......

The province of bc has generally been pretty good in clearing the roads on the sea to sky highway so perhaps that had something to do with it?  I know a few people who go up to whistler in the winter months while there's snow on the ground/highway with AS tires. Those Vancouver drivers dont know how to drive in the snow and those yahoos in SUV's think they can drive wherever at full speed with their AS tires too.  In general, it's not a bad idea to stay off the road when it snows in Vancouver.

Here is an excerpt from the link UmroAyyar posted:

Four areas of winter tire design help provide traction. Tread design, such as grooves, block layout and pattern provide about 50% of the traction on fresh snow, but this quickly drops off as the snow packs. By the time it becomes icy snow, the tread design helps very little with traction. The tread compound provides about 40% of the tire traction and this remains remarkably consistent in most road conditions, from fresh snow to icy packed snow. The compound benefits only begin to decrease when driving on black ice (ice on the road you can't see), where the compound may only provide about 10 per cent of the traction.

[tpl]

.... In Vancouver, when it snows, there are so many idiots on the roads with summer tires and no knowledge of winter/snow driving techniques, that it becomes a big crap shoot as to who will hit you first. I lived there for over 10 years and saw the carnage when a bit of wet snow falls......

In TO they give out a forgetfulness shot with the flu shot on the day before the first snow. ... or maybe they put something in the water all through October/November....

[KRS]

 for a list of tires which meet the Requirements to bear the mountain and snowflake http://www.betiresmart.ca/buying/winterlist.asp?loc1=buying&loc2=winterList#winterTire09
   
 this is a listing from the Rubber association of canada, which appears to have most brands I am aware of.

[Loudpedal]

for a list of tires which meet the Requirements to bear the mountain and snowflake http://www.betiresmart.ca/buying/winterlist.asp?loc1=buying&loc2=winterList#winterTire09
   
 this is a listing from the Rubber association of canada, which appears to have most brands I am aware of.

An interesting link, but seemingly not 100% accurate.  My Nokian WR's have the mountain/snowflake severe service emblem on them (as I believe the Nokian WRG2's have as well) but are not on the list. 

[Trainman]

for a list of tires which meet the Requirements to bear the mountain and snowflake http://www.betiresmart.ca/buying/winterlist.asp?loc1=buying&loc2=winterList#winterTire09
   
 this is a listing from the Rubber association of canada, which appears to have most brands I am aware of.

An interesting link, but seemingly not 100% accurate.  My Nokian WR's have the mountain/snowflake severe service emblem on them (as I believe the Nokian WRG2's have as well) but are not on the list. 

I seem to think there is a whole wack of tires that are not on that list, ie none of the General Grabber AT2's are despite the advertising nor or are our Hankooks or the Traction Kings I had on the Pathy, both of which have the symbol.

Another tire I was looking at was the Nokian WRG2 SUV, and it is not on the list but the tire shop said it was a sever winter tire.

[SiRCivic]

From the introduction to the list:

"The following list provides the model names of RAC Member tire brands only tires that are dedicated and marketed for winter use only." (emphasis added)

Tires like Grabbers (and the BFG T/A KOs also spring to mind) are marketed as All Terrain tires firstly, so I guess that's why they aren't on the list.

[Trainman]

From the introduction to the list:

"The following list provides the model names of RAC Member tire brands only tires that are dedicated and marketed for winter use only." (emphasis added)

Tires like Grabbers (and the BFG T/A KOs also spring to mind) are marketed as All Terrain tires firstly, so I guess that's why they aren't on the list.

But they still have the snowflake symbol, so go figure......

[initial_D]

The Snow flake symbol is a Canadian winter tire Standard, US spec winter tires don't need it.

[AVToller]

An interesting link, but seemingly not 100% accurate.  My Nokian WR's have the mountain/snowflake severe service emblem on them (as I believe the Nokian WRG2's have as well) but are not on the list. 

Correct. My Nokian WR G2s do have the severe service emblem. 

[capriracer]

The Snow flake symbol is a Canadian winter tire standard, US spec winter tires don't need it.

Sorry, the snow flake symbol is a US based standard.  The Canadian government was the drive behind its creation, but the Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA, a US based tire industry group) is the keeper of the standard.

And it is true that many all terrain tires will pass the standard - much to the chagrin of Transport Canada.  TC has petitioned the RMA to revise the standard upwards, basically so only winter tires pass the standard - but like many things, once it is in place, it can't be changed. 

BTW, the Europeans do not like the symbol - might be a "not invented here" sort of thing, so many tires may not have the symbol that could pass the standard.  If you are in doubt about a particular tire, call the manufacturer.  If you have a tire that doesn't show the symbol, but passes the standard, and the symbol is required due to local regulations, the manufacturer can issue a letter stating that the tire passes and that would be sufficient for the regulations.

[wing]

Quick, who drew the symbol and what "club" was he in

[initial_D]

http://www.canadiandriver.com/winter/tires/snow_tires.htm

[Snowman]

In the old days it was the narrowest possible tire with the softest possible rubber with the largest thread spacing.

[kflack]

The Snow flake symbol is a Canadian winter tire standard, US spec winter tires don't need it.

Sorry, the snow flake symbol is a US based standard.  The Canadian government was the drive behind its creation, but the Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA, a US based tire industry group) is the keeper of the standard.

And it is true that many all terrain tires will pass the standard - much to the chagrin of Transport Canada.  TC has petitioned the RMA to revise the standard upwards, basically so only winter tires pass the standard - but like many things, once it is in place, it can't be changed. 

BTW, the Europeans do not like the symbol - might be a "not invented here" sort of thing, so many tires may not have the symbol that could pass the standard.  If you are in doubt about a particular tire, call the manufacturer.  If you have a tire that doesn't show the symbol, but passes the standard, and the symbol is required due to local regulations, the manufacturer can issue a letter stating that the tire passes and that would be sufficient for the regulations.

So here we go.....To make a long story short...I am an owner of brand new tires (5,000 KM) MotoMaster Total Terrain AT P245/70R16s cdn tire p.n. 06-3387-0 ....In Quebec they have outlawed the use of All Season tires and are in the process of mandating only tire with the snowflake symbol/with Mountain be suitable for driving on the roads in Quebec after Dec 15 every year.....Note: They have made some exceptions for Tire(s) designated with LT (and M+S) and AT and A/T Blizzard....I am trying to get someone to assure me that my tires meet the specs but so far no takers (Who Will gaurantee....) I am just trying to find someone who will identify if they do or do not meet the current regulations (Quebec regulations) So Far Cdn tire has only said they read what transport canada wrote on their site, and they 'Recommend" that I buy certified winter tires if I intend to Drive in winter storms etc......

Are these tires ones that actually qualified, t the chagrin of TC ?